You still win because I know you will never read my response. Makes it hard for me to reply with a better comment when you put up a fake name and email address. Isn’t it so much fun to call somebody an idiot and not have to answer to their reply?

Maybe I should of put a LOL after Obamacare. Figured its easier than calling it H.R Crap Bill.

You make a lot of great points but a lot of it needs to be taken one step farther.

How does capitalism not work? I live near Detroit. There is plenty of non-accountability laying around me. Want a 1000sq ft house for $3k? Big 3 thought they were invincible and then Toyota, Nissan, and Honda swooped in and stole market share.

There was nothing “free market” about whats happened in the last 6 years or so in regards to the bailouts. The Govt you speak so fondly of bailed them out when the bank/ auto companies should have been allowed to go BK and had to sell off its good parts. If the Federal Reserve was not around setting interest rates then there would not of been the housing bust.

Fine 2037 for SS. I’ll be 57. Why would I ever want to pay into something knowing that there will be nothing waiting there for me? That’s as dumb as a football bat. I would rather save myself and invest.

Defense – I hate knowing that we have over 1100 US bases around the world killing people for no reason then besides not being American.
Roads – Have you ever driven on MIchigan roads? They are garbage. The problem is they keep asking for more money. My county already spent its budget for salting and plowing the roads for the year. What do you mean the private sector could not handle the cost? The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_Bridge is privately owned. It is the busiest international crossing in North America. Nobody around here complains about the guy making a billion dollars a year owning the bridge besides the politicians. They want to use tax payer dollars to make another bridge but the State of MI is broke. The owner has said he would invest his money in building another bridge but the U.S and Canada will not allow him. So we all suffer. Backups at the bridge are very common.

If you don’t like it that executives earn $10 million a year then stop buying their product. You might as well stop watching movies and sports to because the athletes and stars make that kind of money. Forget music. Could it ever be that maybe they make a great product and they are worth it? Corporate welfare exists because of the bailouts and regulations set forth by the Govt. You can tell me I’m wrong all day but I’ve lived around the UAW my whole life and they were able to get favors for them in MIchigan. Then the market kicked in and it didn’t matter.

Didn’t a private company just put a plane into sub-orbit http://www.virgingalactic.com/?

I understand that you have a lot more life experience than me but to say that I have not done my homework is BS. I’ve provided links in my previous comments to the info I came across. I know you did not click on them because the stats on my site shows no clicks on those links. There are at least 5 hours or more of reading disproving just about EVERYTHING you stand behind. EVERYTHING. I didn’t just wake up one day hating the Govt. I was fired from my mortgage job because we could not close any more loans. I went to Google and typed in “why is the housing market crashing.” That was in 2007. I haven’t stopped reading.

I think its amazing that I (or anybody) can wipe my own ass with the things you’ve said. I think its amazing how you think you know what’s best for everybody. I have no clue what’s best for everybody. That’s why I don’t support anything our Govt says. How am I to decide what’s best for somebody on the other side of the country. I mean, I can barely wipe my ass, but you already know that. Probably should make a law that creates a agency full of Govt jackboots that come to our houses showing the proper way to wipe your ass and if caught doing it wrong they will fine you.

But you win. I’m obviously too dumb to know what’s good for me. Can you help me tie my shoes?

QUOTE: “It is clear that neither Laura nor Brad have done their homework at all – they are working from fallacious, ideologically-driven premises, that are not based in fact”.

OK…..I dare now use another “Big Word”….PRETENTIOUS!!!! :)

Orpheius my darling, where were you when my brother was thrown on the ER floor left to bleed to death in a border country to the US, just because he was a foreigner? It wasn’t until my Nana pulled out her checkbook that they hurried him into surgery.

And were you present during the numerous confessions in “Secondary” (Customs & Immigration interviews) at 5 of our major airports during the span of 20 years where passengers from foreign countries came to US with the intent to walk into a hospital 2 hours later to have surgery the next day?

Were you in the room next to mine during my weeks of stay at http://www.optimumhealth.org/ learning about the nutritional benefits of raw food and growing your own wheatgrass at home?

And how about those “Banos de Sangre” at http://www.elgrullodar.com/indiceen.htm ?? Was it fun waking up at 4am and walk into a steam room giving yourself a body shock by pouring your body with ice cold mountain water every 5 minutes?

Have you had accupunture in 2 different continents? Were you a Vegan for 5 years?

Do you have a certification in Shiatsu Anma technique? How about Reflexology?

I tell you this not to impress you, but to impress upon you that taking your health into your own hands goes beyond politics ( or ideology as you call it).

Orpheius, you need to relax and use some of that stored up passion and think outside the box for a while.

I had many celebrities, high powered polititians and medics on my massage table after 911 where they found the healing they craved which they could not find with allopathic medicine.

They say that healthy bodies support healthy minds and spirit. I believe they are one in the same.

Why was the American experiment called an experiment? Because it never had been tried before. What had never been tried? Man ruling themselves.

In 1787, when the Founding Fathers had hammered out the U.S. Constitution in Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin told an inquiring woman what the gathering had produced, “A republic, madam, if you can keep it.”

So unlike you, Orpheous, I have faith that the American people can rule themselves if they know who they are and what they believe in (enlightment), followed by education which empowers them, which will eventually lead to entrepreneurship.

So, there you Orpheous. My (out of the box) homework called experience in a nutshell. I’ve earned the increasing silver threads on the top of my head that I wear with pride.

Stay strong and stay healthy both you & Brad. Debate is healthy ( BTW, did I also mention I was a certified mediator?) HAH!

Laura

The problem is (and the founder recognized this which is why they architected checks-and-balances in our Constitution) without oversight, any powerful, wealthy institution can become an unaccountable concentration of power.

It is clear that neither Laura nor Brad have done their homework at all – they are working from fallacious, ideologically-driven premises, that are not based in fact.

By claiming that “everyone calls the Affordable Healthcare Act ‘obamacare’” only makes my point for me – it’s a pejorative and not based in fact. That’s just not what it’s called – it does not matter if “everyone” calls it that. So thank you for affirming that point for me! Furthermore, by implying “everyone” (which is not true anyway) you are also employing a Bandwagon Fallacy – this does not help you to make your points and shows a flaw in reasoning.

Now, your so-called “free market” is anything but free – it’s just a euphemistic cover for “monopolistic capitalism” and always has been.

The real truth regarding “free market capitalism” is that it is an abrogation of civic responsibility, a blank check for zero accountability, and fertile ground for sowing the seeds of corruption. But the ideology of “free market capitalism” also appeals to a deep-seated narcissism in many humans who’ve deluded themselves into believing that they are “making it on their own” – nonsense; no one makes it on their own. Next to religion, that is one of the most dangerous myths perpetuated by conservatives and would-be libertarians.

The free market when left to its devices has failed, time and again; which is why it has had to be bailed out by the very same government and tax payers that it claims to abhor and wants to not interfere with business. Every time (over the last 100+ years) it gets itself into trouble (as a result of it’s own pathological excesses) it needs to bailed out. When economic times are good, the “rugged individualists” scream “laissez faire!”; when they screw up as a result of financial malfeasance (which is occurring with increased frequency), they then scream “oh save us Uncle Sam and middle class tax payers or else our entire system will collapse!”. Then after they get more tax money than the much-hated social safety net programs, they then blame their own incompetence and criminal behavior on the government! What a gaggle of craven, hypocritical cowards!

Every time regulation did not exist or was reduced/limited, the so-called free market created problems not just to the rest of society by to itself!

I am self-employed now, again, too, and began as such before spending many years in the corporate world. The notion that private companies or entities are more efficient or better able to make decisions that are fairer is just another myth. I speak from personal experience and over 30 years of reading and studying history. It is THE BIG LIE that has been fobbed off to an increasingly mis-educated public that has only been made more ignorant by corporate and wealthy elite funded media, revisionism, and propaganda.

Regarding SS and Medicare – you, again, misunderstood what I wrote. And the system is not broken; in fact, the trust fund is solvent through 2037 and can pay ALL benefits without doing a single thing now. Furthermore, you again made my argument for me by saying that Congress raids the fund for its Imperial Wars. Exactly right! That’s the issue, not the fund itself. Again – SS can be made totally secure by ensuring full employment but that is NOT what these “free market” capitalists really want.

If left up to its devices, the “market” would do NOTHING that costs it anything – history has shown this time and time and time again.

So, why should we pay into a pool of money that provides healthcare for everyone? For the same reason we pay taxes for anything, Brad: defense, roads, communications, infrastructure, R&D (that’s too costly for the private sector to risk), subsidies to actually give businesses a shot in the arm, etc., etc. —- in other words because it benefits all of society and gives everyone a shot at prosperity. But hey, if you are concerned about welfare and a free ride on the tax payers dime, look no further than corporate welfare and executive compensation.

This venue that you and I (and your other guests) are debating and discussing on (Internet) came as a result of government-funded research. Did you know that?

Scientific knowledge about Astronomy, Cosmology, Biology, even medicine – would not exist to the extend it exists without tax-payer and government research support. Did you know THAT?

So for you to claim that we should “let the market decide” these issues and many others, illustrates a profound lack of historical understanding and even your own self-embraced economic “beliefs” that frankly boggles the imagination.

What works best is a give-take partnership between private enterprise, the government, and its citizens; that is what works well for all concerned and allows innovation and prosperity for all – not just unfettered “free market/enterprise”.

Good luck.
~M

Thanks for leaving such a detailed response. You used a couple big words in there that I had to look up like “pejorative.” I like that one. Made me do a little bit of homework. But come on man, everybody calls it Obamacare. Also, I don’t consider myself a right-winger or R. Everything I say is based on my gatherings of Free Market Economics. I’m more of a top-center in the balcony economist looking down below at both sides arguing and not getting anywhere.

So I guess I’ll give you my points starting with…

#2. The problem with Nationalized Healthcare (or anything) is that not everybody needs it so why should they be forced to pay for it? I’m self-employed and the only reason why I buy my own health insurance (which is cheaper than my cell phone bill and cable bill) is because I go snowboarding and would rather pay the $70 a month to cover the E-Room bill if I smash my face. I have been to the Drs. once in 6 years (because I take care of myself doing P90X) and it was only because the health insurance company said I needed to get a physical and some blood work done. I called around and negotiated the Drs visit. It was kind of fun actually. Paid them in cash. So why would any healthy person ever buy health insurance just to go to the Drs. when they can pay cash? Health insurance should only be used for big things, not Drs. visits.

The question is really simple. If you are in favor of Nationalized Healthcare then you are in favor of raising taxes. I have no problem with it if you or anybody that is in favor of it is willing to pick up mine and everybody that’s against its tab. If you are not willing to pick up our tabs then you are not in favor of Nationalized Healthcare. You can’t get brought into the emotional side of this. While people feel the profit model is in-human it is by far the best model out there.

#3. My parents never had any major health issues. Dad worked for Ford full time, did National Guard pt. Mom was ft Guard. We always went to our private Dr. Let’s assume the care is just as good at the VA. The issue is that the costs are subsidized by taxpayers. Why don’t we all join the military so we get the same cost? Can’t work as who’s going to pay the taxes to fund it? Do they just print more money up to cover it? Doesn’t that cause inflation?

#4. I agree about the trust fund thing. There’s nothing in it anyways. They are using that money to fund our never ending wars killing people. How does the Govt create jobs? The answer is simple. Eliminate SS and Medicare all together then this goes away.

#5. I agree about the gamesmanship and both sides are idiots. The only real alternative is to eliminate all of it (Medicare, Medicaid, SS) and get the Govt out of the way. Let the Free Market decide how health care should be ran.

#6. Well put and this leads into a bunch of other issues. You, I, and everybody else does not like the fact that private insurance companies are going to get 55 m more people because of this bill. I wish I could pass a bill making 55 million people buy P90X from me. I’d be able to retire. The question is how did we get to this point? It started when the IRS allowed health insurance to be a pre-tax benefit for employers to offer. Why wouldn’t you take health insurance if your employer was paying for it? You’d be stupid not to take it. Companies used this to attract employees. It still goes on today. Everybody is so benefits focused when it comes to taking a job now. What if the people between the ages of 18-35 didn’t take health insurance with their jobs and paid for Drs. visit only when they needed. Do you think that would put a dent in the private companies pockets?

If the Govt was doing such a great job of being accountable then why have they not been accountable for anything? If govt regulation was such a great idea then why is it not working? I don’t know how these people want me to have less power. The only one of the three I follow is Paul. Everything he says would involve more power for me. All that regulation does is slow down the process. The market always wins.

The question is simple. If you can’t take care of yourself and feel that you need more help then keep pushing for more Govt involvement.

I’m going to have to disagree 100% on your giving up liberty, freedom, and choices statement. How do I have MORE choices to decide on what I want to do with my money when they pass a bill forcing me to buy something I would rather not buy. How do ANY of us have more freedom when we the IRS is going to be looking on my tax return to see if I buy health insurance.

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

The problem with all of this is that there is a debate in which there shouldn’t be one. If Govt was not involved the free market would decide best how to do this. The U.S wouldn’t be going broke making promises it can’t keep and people would be forced to take responsibility for their own well being.

Yes, P90X is a great program. Its changed mine and about a million other peoples lives. I’m so involved with it because I enjoy helping people make the decision to take care of their own health.

Nice quote AND sources. You have done your homework.

“What the Government giveth, the Government can taketh away!”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110126/ap_on_re_us/us_health_care_overhaul_costs_2

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110127/D9L0BDUG0.html

Thanks. The question people do not ask when it comes to the Healthcare debate (or anything Govt ran for that matter) is “if it was such a great idea then why has it never worked once in the history of the world without bankrupting the nation / state / city that set it up?”

The problem is people think they know it all but their neighbors don’t and that its better off that the Govt does something to take care of them (or the stupid people / idiots). When unfortunately, your neighbors are probably doing just fine taking care of themselves (and are not idiots). What makes it worse is none of the politicians who think of these ides of things “we need” or should have “a right to” are experts in the field to begin with.